Saying NO. In a nice way and feeling OK about it.

Monica Pitts 00:04 Saying no or saying yes, it's like an energy game like, Which am I going to give my energy to this thing or that thing? And I kind of think of the art of saying no nicely, kind of like an apology, you should get to it quickly. Don't drag it along. Just say no. Try to keep it positive, and upbeat and empathetic and, and show them that you understand and that you honor the opportunity and that you really do value them. Monica Pitts 00:38 You're on mission, and you just need more people to know about it. And whether you're brand new to marketing or a seasoned pro. We are all looking for answers to make marketing decisions with purpose. I'm Monica Pitts, a techie crafty business owner, mom and aerial dancer who solves communication challenges through technology. This podcast is all about digging in and going digital. I'll share my marketing know how and business experience from almost 20 years of misadventures. I'll be your backup dancer. So you can stop doubting, and get moving towards marketing with purpose. Hello, again, and welcome back to marketing with purpose. My name is Monica Pitts. And with me today, I have my trusty sidekick, Stacey Brockmeier, Master of so many things that may MayeCreatee. And both of us have worked really hard over the past few years to master the art of No. I feel like I started my no journey a lot earlier than Stacy did, honestly. Because when I had my second kid, I was like, no more networking organizations, no more leads groups. No more events to sell MayeCreate services. I just said no. And people were like, no, but Monica, we really want you to be a Rotarian. And I'm like, Yeah, until I'm done nursing the second kid? The answer is no. Just no. Cuz I had my priorities in place, right. And then probably the last two years, Stacy, you have gone through and kind of cold your activities and gotten into the groove of like harnessing your energy where it belongs. Tell us about some of the things that you've had to let go of recently. Well, recently, or let's say the last few years, I Stacy Brockmeier 02:24 think first of all, like it took me a long time to be confident and comfortable saying no. And so S think first of all, like it took me a long time to be confident and comfortable saying no. And so it's so I'm so much more comfortable just telling people that I can't do that right now. Like basically just protecting my time, that's been the biggest thing. Time is our biggest asset. And so I have said no to so many things, because I'm protecting my time for the things that are really important to me. Monica Pitts 02:51 Yeah, protecting our energy too. Because we need to be able to focus it where it counts. I think that's what I was doing. When I had those really small people at home. I couldn't go home and have my energy for them if I'd already spent it all doing something else. And I feel like to in these past few years like you were on so many boards and led so many different like initiatives in the community because you're so freakin capable. Okay, you're so good people like flocked to you don't like Stacey. Stacy Brockmeier 03:19 I had, I did have to take a board hiatus for a little while. Just because I was so burnt out with giving my time and energy to these things. And feeling like I was on an island. And so I did take a little bit of a board hiatus there for a minute. Monica Pitts 03:37 Yeah, you did. I'm proud of you though. Yeah, it felt right. It was the right time, Stacy Brockmeier 03:42 by far the right time. Not just for me, though. But I think it was the right time for those organizations for me to go to, you know, so I think that that's, it's when you are ready to say no, oftentimes, it's beneficial, not just for you. And so yeah, it was the right time all the way around. Monica Pitts 03:58 Because saying no, or saying yes. It's like an energy game like Which am I going to give my energy to this thing or that thing? Right. And I like how you're talking about that, Stacy? Because that's that positive head game that you play. You're like, you know what, I did this for a long time. And now I say no to it. And it's the right decision not but but and it's the right decision for everyone involved because now they get the new energy in and I get to put my energy into something else. And so that's a powerful like self care statement. Stacy Brockmeier 04:33 Yeah. Well, I naturally I'm a yes person. I love to say yes, I love to solve problems. I love to help people like I am a yes person in so many ways. And it's S S S people like I am a yes person in so many ways. And it's Monica Pitts 04:46 hard for me to say no, I can't do that. Like okay, so there are certain things that I definitely say no to if it's like me having to go out in public. I would probably you know that. No, I'm not going to go to the bars like anymore. I'm not really interested. But if you're like, Hey Monica, can you figure out how to integrate these three systems and program this all together? I want to say yes, like really hard. Stacy Brockmeier 05:08 Yeah. Really hard. Well, and I think, I don't know, I just love to say yes, I it's just such a nice thing to feel like you're helping somebody out and doing the thing. But I often anymore find myself. It's not that I can't. It's, I won't, because it's not right. You know, it's not the right thing to put my energy into. It's not the right thing. Because let me tell you, I can't isn't really my vocabulary. Monica Pitts 05:39 No, I'm, no, Stacy Brockmeier 05:40 I tell the world, I figure it out. I love to figure new things out and learn new things. So Monica Pitts 05:46 I tell my girls that all the time and like in the pits family, we don't can't, that's just not good about it, girls forget about it. So, I do feel like though as women, we have a harder time saying no to things than men, like 100%, I think are sexist. The culture Stacy Brockmeier 06:07 that we live in teaches us to be all things all the time, as women were supposed to be strong and independent. And all these things while being a good wife, and a good mom and a good employee and a good everything. And you can't be everything at one time. It's just not possible. And I think it takes a level of maturity to understand that. And yeah, some of you said yes, but some of us may have taken a longer time than others. Monica Pitts 06:39 Remember, when I first had Ellis Ellis is my first child. And I was like, I am going to work from home. And I you know, during my maternity leave, because I'm not going to take off, I'm saying S S S home. And I you know, during my maternity leave, because I'm not going to take off, I'm saying yes to continuing working. And I just thought that it would be fine to have this baby at my house. I would. And I would tell Stacy, I'm like I don't I'm not succeeding at anything. Nothing like my house is trashed. My baby's unhappy. I'm a mess. And I'm not getting my work done like that. What? There was no, I'm Stacy Brockmeier 07:14 not doing your job at anything. No. Monica Pitts 07:17 Because my energy was all over the place. And I couldn't actually consolidate it into something that I wanted it to do. So I do feel like women have a higher tendency to say yes, more often. And I think it's because we feel like we should be in a supportive role. And we should be helping everyone out. And I also feel like it's because a lot of people interpret know, as conflict and no is not always conflict. No is just no. And it's okay. It's kind of like when people unsubscribe from your email list. They're telling you no, they're not telling you. I hate you. That's not what they're saying. They're saying, not right now. Right? Not right now. And that's all right. I don't, I don't want to bother people. I want to serve people. And so you can tell me No, and it's okay. Stacy Brockmeier 08:08 Well, and so many times, I would rather someone tell me no, then just passively, like either appease me or not respond or whatever the situation is. So especially in business, but also in my personal life. I would much rather someone tell me no. Then the alternative of just like stringing me along, I guess if that is the case. Monica Pitts 08:32 Yeah, like because there's, there are consequences to saying yes. Right. And we've already been describing them. So tell me, Stacy, what are some of the consequences that you felt for saying yes, maybe a non? Me on allocated? Yes. Well, I Stacy Brockmeier 08:51 think we started down the path of not doing anything well. And so if you're spread so thin, your focus just as unfair, you can't do your best at everything. So that means that you're giving pieces to everything, which means you're not doing anything well. And so I think that's probably one of the biggest things is your reputation hinges hinges on that your, like, confidence hinges on on doing something well, but on top of that, I think the easiest one is just like being overwhelmed all the time and having this sense of over stimulation and burnout. You know, I think that burnout is kind of a buzzword right now, if you will, but I think saying yes, that is a huge consequence. S S S Monica Pitts 09:43 I feel like too, one thing that we said no to like really early in MayeCreate is no to, like huge programming projects that we had to do all the way from scratch and it was because they weren't like anything that we were We're doing otherwise. And so we would spend all this energy finding a solution for someone. And then, while it made us smarter, we didn't get to use it time and time again. And so I feel like saying yes to a bunch of new things. While new things are fun. It's hard to become efficient and really good at it. And then you're spending all this energy and time on these new things when you could do things you've already mastered really, really well and grow through them. And so I remember sitting down with Travis one day and being like, I'm not taking on any of these programming projects for you anymore. And he was like, what? And I was like, Yeah, dude, these are terrible. I am losing my hat, like I am losing so much money and so much energy into these things. So the benefits that we've found, especially as we've transitioned into the four day workweek of saying no, which, Stacey, How many things did we say no, to when we transition to a four day work week? We didn't just say no to working on Fridays. Oh, Stacy Brockmeier 10:58 my gosh, so many noes. I mean, we said no to ourselves, we said no to our clients, we said no to the employees. I mean, really, as a whole, we cut out so much of the fluff. So much of the busy work so much of that stuff in our entire lives, you know, so not at home, not only at home, but at work. We just had to increase our productivity overall. Because we're all had to get the same amount of work done for our clients and four days, instead of five. Monica Pitts 11:35 Well, we had to pick where we were going to spend our energy to. So we said no to social media, even though we'd been doing it and it was fine. It didn't really make us any money. But we did it. And we were and it was fine. I'm not so we weren't Yeah, as a service. Yeah. As a service. Yeah. Not for ourselves. You know, I keep you. I keep trying to say no to that. Apparently, it's here to stay. Monica Pitts 12:03 Yeah, and one thing we said no to a long time ago, too, is like no building sites that aren't built in WordPress. Yeah. So through the years, we've said no to things that didn't serve us anymore. And it allowed us to get even better at the things that we were already good at. And really serve our clients at a higher level, at a lower cost. Because we had that expertise that we could fall back on instead of just spreading ourselves thin and working on a whole bunch of weird stuff. Stacy Brockmeier 12:31 I think like so to, to put into very like simple terms, like the biggest thing that we said no to was like the social norm of bigger is better. I feel like that was like probably the hardest part. And the biggest thing that we said no to but in business. And as women running businesses like S S the biggest thing that we said no to but in business. And as women running businesses like doing more is better, like more clients, more staff, more employees, more time, more energy, more money. And that's not always the case. And I think even after we made the decision, I don't know, I think I don't remember what meetings we had. But people kept asking us well, when you add more designers, or when you add more people or when you have more admin staff, and it's like we are at a point where we don't want to grow that way. And so saying no to that, like social norm, and people still ask us that. Probably weekly, like when you have more people or when you decide to hire more. And we said no, we said no to more people. Monica Pitts 13:43 And that does not mean we're not taking on new clients or any we're not building websites for people. It means that we sat down and yes, it made us feel proud when we were like we have like 16 employees or however many we had that. I mean, people were like, oh, Monica, I had no idea you had an engineer to run like that big of a company. Yeah, but like, I wasn't as profitable as I am with an eight person team. So why why did why should I do that extra, you know, it just takes so much more energy out of you. And oh my gosh, Stacey, you're right. That is such, Oh, that's such a hot button. For me. When people are like, well, when you hire more people you're going to need I'm like, Stacy Brockmeier 14:25 you're not getting the picture. Like we like this size, and that's okay. It's Monica Pitts 14:31 like the person who works part time and is happy working part time. And that's okay to them. Why do they have to take it to the next level? If that's okay, like Can't they just say yes to what they have and be happy with it? Like what is wrong with people? Okay, Stacy Brockmeier 14:44 we live in a more society more and more and more and more, more, more, more. And I just think like, the day that we decided to not follow that social norm of more like was just I just Remember, like sitting down and being like, it's okay not to grow that way. Like we're growing in all these other ways. It's okay not to grow with, like the way society thinks we should grow, we went. Monica Pitts 15:15 That's what we did is that noise? That noise is what came out of us. So, as we have said, No who said no to tasks, committees, employees, events, opportunities. We had to learn the art of saying no nicely and explaining what was going on. And in dealing with some fallback, like some not as positive feedback. And I kind of think of the art of saying no, nicely, kind of like an apology. A you should get to it quickly. Don't drag it along. Just say no, even if it's just a friend S S who's like, Hey, can you come over for dinner? If you know you can't do it? Or if there's a doubt, tell them no, done? No. And that's okay. And obviously, there's some nice ways that you can do it, you don't just apologize by somebody looking at somebody, this is I tell my kids, don't just look at your sister and say, sorry, because that doesn't go, okay. Instead, if I'm telling someone No, I make sure. And I focus on an eye statement. It's coming from my point of view that I'm telling them no, I like to keep it more brief. And more general. I love to dig into details. But I don't think that a refusal is the time to dig into details. And try to keep it positive, and be empathetic and and show them that you understand and that you honor the opportunity, and that you really do value them. So a couple of ways that you could say it is, you know, thank you so much for thinking of me, I appreciate the opportunity, but I can't do it right now. Or it means a lot that you thought of me, however, I can't commit at this moment. Or I've given this some serious thought and it's tempting. But I have to decline, because I want to maintain my current workload. And I do the same thing. Like if somebody asks me, Hey, do you want to do this marketing opportunity, and I find value in it. I'm like, Hey, thank you so much for thinking of me, I really do appreciate it that that you consider this an opportunity for us. I consider it an opportunity to it just doesn't fit into what we're doing right now. So can you reach back out to me next year, because I would like to be reminded and consider it again. And they're never offended by that. Right? Yeah. All right. So Stacy, Stacy Brockmeier 17:34 I like that. I love being able to put on my calendar, reach back out to Monica, you know, in September, and then I don't I'm not bothering you. You're not feeling overwhelmed. I think it's like great from a business perspective. Monica Pitts 17:48 Well, it's clear communication, which is money when it comes to business, right? Yeah. So earlier, you had this like really positive head talk, right? You were like, hey, if I say no to this, it's the right thing for me and the right thing for you, even though maybe it feels kind of itchy right now. So I feel like the thing that we had to do as a group it MayeCreate and that you had to do yourself, before you got started, it was prioritize where you're going like you didn't know where you were going. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And you also had to set forth some non negotiables, as well. And then I tell, we would tell ourselves to that we would have to respect the boundaries and the non negotiables that we set. Because if we don't respect them, who's going to respect them? Right? If we can tell our clients, we're not going to do their social media, but if we keep doing it, Stacy Brockmeier 18:48 we didn't stop them. Let us keep doing it. Monica Pitts 18:51 Do you want to elaborate on any of those things? Stacy? S S Stacy Brockmeier 18:54 I just think I mean, the only thing is like, if you set your non negotiables, and you don't abide by them and respect your own boundaries, they're not non negotiables anymore. You know, so I think it just makes if you're clear with what you're doing, it makes the entire thing feel okay. It's Monica Pitts 19:13 like you created a checklist. But yeah, it has to be reasonable. So I feel like your boundaries should be as reasonable as goals, right? You can't just be like, I'm never going to eat a piece of chocolate again, that in my universe does not work ever. It's never going to work. I could Stacy Brockmeier 19:29 probably say, I'm not going to eat another piece of chocolate today. But that's probably not true either. Yeah, I think just making sure that it's realistic is super important. Making sure that you're communicating your boundaries, I think is also really important. So, I mean, we talked a lot about a technique that we learned in Sandler back in the day was an upfront contract. I think that's right, just your trademark of Sandler. Monica Pitts 20:01 Yeah, the Sandler sales training. Yeah, it's not our registered trademark, it's theirs. We pay them for that training. It was awesome. Yeah, that it was Stacy Brockmeier 20:11 it was really great. But just being very straightforward with the expectation. Yeah. Monica Pitts 20:18 Because the upfront contract, all it is, is that lets people know, like, your intent, that like, what you're gonna get out of it, what they're gonna get out of it, it sets a clear future. It's, it's a timeline. It just, it lets people know like, this is what's happening. Stacy Brockmeier 20:33 And like the SMART goal of communication really is. Monica Pitts 20:37 And Stacy, you just use this next technique that we have on our outline on me just the other day, you use it all the time, you don't even know you use it. Oh, S S S S day, you use it all the time, you don't even know you use it. Oh, Stacy Brockmeier 20:47 I use my greatest fear, I think you're probably talking about my greatest fear. So my greatest fear is, and I say it out loud all the time. Because what I don't want to have happen is that thing that I just said is my greatest fear. And so I use that technique all the time, in every aspect of my life from like, my kids, to my marriage to business to everything, just because I feel like pointing it out. Pointing out the worst case scenario is so, so important. Monica Pitts 21:16 Yeah. And so for example, let's say that we've got a client who wants to write their own website content. And we don't feel like they have the ability to say yes to that, because they're super busy. So we might be guiding them into a No, right? Not for extra money for us. But because we want to get the project done, and we want it to get done well. And so we would tell them, my greatest fear is that your life gets super busy. And you don't have the ability to dedicate the energy that you want to to writing your content. And then the project is on hold, basically indefinitely. And that sucks, you know, so you can use my greatest fear for all kinds of things. It's a pretty powerful statement, putting the fears on the table people well, Stacy Brockmeier 22:04 and I think it's so helpful for addressing like specific scenarios. Yeah, yeah, no. And in things within projects and things within your own life and things within business as a whole. I think it's super helpful Monica Pitts 22:19 when you can add a third party story to it, and then it doesn't even become about them. So my greatest fear is that this project ends up like so many I've seen where people are super busy. And their everyday work gets in the way, and so the content doesn't get written. And then the website doesn't turn out as well as you want it to or as effective as you wanted it to. And you're stressed out, you know, and so it kind of like goes, then it's less about them and more about this thing that's happened in the past that works really well. Yeah. But sometimes when we say no, doesn't always go exactly the way that we want to, you know, like, stuff gets negative or, or it actually does turn into conflict. Like earlier, we said it's not conflict until it you know, it's not really conflict. It's just a no, but then sometimes it turns into conflict. Right? Stacy Brockmeier 23:06 Well, I think when people bring emotions to it, like they don't like to hear no, often. And so sometimes people will get emotional overhearing No. And so then it does turn into conflict, for sure. I S S S Monica Pitts 23:18 think, well, I know that before we tell people, no, we like to make sure that we have all of our bases covered. And we understand all of the fallout that could potentially happen from it. So if we know if we're going to stop working with a client, and we know that they feel out of control, like they don't want to do it wrong, they're not comfortable doing the thing that we do for them, then we're going to make sure that we have all the things in place so that they can move forward and feel competent, like because they feel like we're taking control away from them. That's why they're upset with us by this No, or this shift. Would you agree? Yeah, I definitely agree with them, especially with decision makers at the top of businesses, we tend to be control freaks. I know Stacy and I are a little bit that way. So I feel like if you are canceling a service or deciding not to take on someone's project, have a list of alternative providers ready to go so that you can send them to someone that will make them feel way less freaked out about Stacy Brockmeier 24:21 it. Yeah, absolutely. So I think when we stopped doing social media for clients, we already had someone lined up that we could refer our trusted clients to should they decide to take that outlet, if you will. Monica Pitts 24:37 And we did the same thing. Whenever we stopped running online ads to which was a few years prior to that we were like, Hey, we here's some people that you can call and you can get this service from we actually really liked them. And then I think also you need to give people like an adequate runway before cancellation. But you can't just be like, oh, and three days from now we're going Stacy Brockmeier 24:57 to stop. That doesn't really work. No, they don't like that. at all, no, Monica Pitts 25:01 I feel like asked to be in writing. And it has to be well in advance. So they have plenty of time to be able to make alternate plans, and you can give a referral and that softens the blow also. And then there are other people that we have trained them or done consulting with them. So that way they could do the tasks on their own that we weren't going to do for them anymore. And that helps, too. It just leaves them feeling in control, or like if they needed to interview other providers, they would ask, Hey, Monica, will you come with me to these interviews? And if I had the time to do it, I would say yes, like, I don't have a problem with that. Or I'll say, Send me your contract over and I'll read it, or tell me, you know, what they're saying that's confusing you and make sure that you understand apples to apples, I don't want them to walk into a bad situation, I just need to say no to them. Because it's not the right situation. For me, it doesn't mean I don't want to take care of them. S S Stacy Brockmeier 25:56 Yeah, I don't think that we should confuse saying no to like wishing ill will upon people, you know, like, we don't want anything bad to happen to them. It's just that this situation or this service, or whatever this, whatever it is, isn't right for us anymore. And so we want them to be taken care of just the way that we would take care of them. Monica Pitts 26:16 So we we help. I mean, even if somebody decides they're not going to work with us as a web design company, we still do everything that we can to make their transition away from us as seamless as possible, because we want them to remember this last interaction with us as people who are competent, and easy to work with, because then when it all falls apart with their next web writer, they can come back to us. And it Stacy Brockmeier 26:40 does happen. Oftentimes, though, they will come back because they do remember that experience they do. Monica Pitts 26:49 So I feel like to kind of like the apologies or like, if you're going to be dealing with angry people, I would give you the advice that I use whenever I have angry people on the phone, which is I just, I let them know that I know how they feel like this is the crappy situation. So you can just empathize with them if they're really angry. And just let them know that you know how they feel. And I feel like that's a powerful tool in your toolbox as you're getting pushed back on your no. Now, Stacy, when you first started, it MayeCreate I remember, like, vividly this one person who you had to say no to because of his account service person explained some of the boundaries that you set as an account service person and time that you have to say no Stacy Brockmeier 27:35 to that. So being an account service person super interesting because you're juggling all of the expectations of all of these people. So I believe the story that you're talking about is it was like my second or third day. And I did not come from a web design background. So keep in mind, I literally knew exactly nothing, when I started my job inside to be trained on everything. And so I had a client that called and was like super Abraha. She pushy. Yeah, I don't know what the word right word is, but like, demanding of time and energy and resources of our team. And I also did not I was not up to speed on her project. And that was really upsetting for her because I was her new person. But I literally had only been, like I maybe had worked for 16 hours at this point at MayeCreate. And so with her, we I just basically had to set some really good boundaries and instill in her that I did have confidence in what I was doing. And we had a great relationship. So she is now retired. But from that point forward, like I think I worked with her for S S S like eight years. And we had a really good professional relationship after that, because there were boundaries put in place. She knew I was a competent person. I stood firm in what I had told her. And so she knew that there really wasn't room for pushback, because I was a straight shooter. And I told her exactly what to expect. And so I think that's just things that you can remember for any conversation is to go into it with confidence and make sure that you maintain professionalism while setting your boundaries. Monica Pitts 29:30 Well, and the boundaries that you set as a team need to be upheld as a team. So like one of the boundaries that we set as a team is we don't take websites live the last day of the week. We don't do it. Because we want to monitor and babysit your website and make sure that it goes live correctly. And if anything goes wrong, which it doesn't usually but it can and we want to be able to babysit it and so like the other day a client called up and was like, I want to take my website live today and Stacy was like no And then the same client then called me and was like, I want to take my website live today. And I was like, no. And she was like, Oh, okay. But the way I told her no, as I said, No, I am sorry, I would love to take your website live today, that would be incredible. And we're in the middle of launching, like, our biggest website of the year. And there's hundreds of people depending upon it going, right, I have all my team working on it. So we can schedule it for early next week, if that works for you. And she was like, Oh, okay. But if Stacy and I hadn't been on the same page, that wouldn't have flown very well, because then it would have undermined Stacy's authority, and then they would, you know? And then number two, yeah, it's key. So if you're setting boundaries, and they're across the team, make sure that everybody knows because there's little knows that, you know, if you think about it, we say little nose all the time in our process. So that way, we make sure that everybody holds true to, you know, their expectations in the project. If, if we said, hey, we're not going to work on this, if you get it in three weeks late, and then we still work on it, then what are we We're not as good as our word. And you're not going to take us at our word, the next time that we tell you, it has to be due at a certain time, right. And I think to Stacey, and I have said this to ourselves a lot. Throughout the last, I don't know, 13 years of working together, we'll be like, Oh, my gosh, these people, they're going to push back. They're going to be upset with us. Because we're saying no, we're because we're changing this policy. And then we come right back around, and we say, here's the deal, they're going to understand, because people are resilient, and they do understand. And if they don't understand, then they're probably not the right people for us to work with. Because we know that if we were in their shoes, we would understand and so just reciprocating that, you know, acceptance and understanding that that people's businesses don't always say the same and they change. Okay, friends, so I'm just going to recap really, really fast, because we started all the way at the top with like, hey, sometimes you got to say no. So you can say yes to other more important things. And when you say yes, repeatedly, it can make you sacrifice other things. And so there's, there's an energy sacrifice involved. If you're saying yes to everything. And you can learn to say no to things. Stacy and I are perfect examples Stacy Brockmeier 32:36 of this. Yes, women all the way. So we Yes had to learn for sure. Monica Pitts 32:43 S Monica Pitts 32:43 And we talked about the art of saying no nicely how it's something that you should do quickly. And use if statements, keep it brief in general. And make sure that you show appreciation, even as you're saying no. And if you're not feeling okay about it, just make sure that you're checking back in with your goals, that you're checking back in with your values, and that this no statement that you're getting ready to declare or make or this opportunity that you're walking away from is actually seated in with those goals and values. So if you don't know where you're going, you should probably start there before you just say no to everything, because you know that. And I think there's a Maslow's hierarchy to this. You know what I'm saying, Stacy, there's times when you're hungry, and you just gotta say Yes, yep. To whatever. Just do what Stacey does, whenever she's getting ready to say no to something and put in the back of your mind that you're doing the right thing, not just for you, but for the other entity involved as well because they're going to be in a better spot and you're going to be in a better spot, because you're both going to be in the spot where you deserve to be right. And then last but not least, we just talked through navigating those difficult situations, making sure you do your homework, have some alternatives, solve the problem for people before you make the problem for them and be empathetic because you know that this is not an easy thing for them. You just gave them another thing that they're going to have to do right go interview another company go you know, find another solution. And that stinks. It takes takes energy for them to and they might not have it right now. Right? Okay, so friends with that Stacey, anything else? Because this was a topic that you wanted to discuss like you brought this to the board. Is there anything else you want to tell people about saying a healthy No, Stacy Brockmeier 34:33 no, I just think it is so empowering. So learn how to say no. It's okay. It is okay. Because that means you're saying yes to something else. Monica Pitts 34:44 See, I love the way you spin it. It's awesome. Well friends, if you enjoyed this episode, or if you learned a thing or two then subscribe. You can come check out the like full on blog post for this episode over on MayeCreate.com. That's ma y e CR ea t.com. And while you're there, you can also subscribe to our email list. And then you'll know every single week when these episodes come out, and you can also decide not to subscribe, because, you know, you get to say no. All right, friends. So that's all and until next time, go forth and mark it with purpose.