Full Transcript
James Goalder 0:04
If you're able to couple this transparency information and show those pie charts with a breakdown for where their gifts are going, if you're able to couple that with some stories of the people whose lives are being impacted, make them anonymous if you need to, you know, understand all of that. But if you're able to couple that together, you're not only providing the donors with it, that transparency that they are desiring, you're actually going to deepen that connection that you have with them, because they're going to read those stories. And they're going to hopefully be moved by that and say, Oh, wow, this organization gives a lot of them have my donation to their mission. And look at these great stories of these people that I'm impacting, that I'm helping to change their life and change the community and all of that. Those are the things that donors want to read about. They want to see
Monica Pitts 0:58
you're on mission, and you just need more people to know about it. And whether you're brand new to marketing or a seasoned pro, we are all looking for answers to make marketing decisions with purpose. I'm Monica Pitts, a techie crafty business owner, mom and aerial dancer who solves communication challenges through technology. This podcast is all about digging in and going digital. I'll share my marketing know how and business experience from almost 20 years of misadventures, I'll be your backup dancer. So you can stop doubting, and get moving towards marketing with purpose. Hello, again, and welcome back to marketing with purpose. My name is Monica Pitts. And today I am the lucky host who gets to interview our guest, James Goalder. And I'm pretty excited because about I don't know, two years ago, we interviewed one of our local nonprofits about their donor management system. And they use Bloomerang. They were super happy with it. And at the time, I actually reached out to Bloomerang. And I was like, Hey, can I get somebody to interview on our podcast? And I, I didn't get anybody. And now I have someone and it's so exciting. So James is with Bloomerang? And why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your company.
James Goalder 2:20
Sure. Thanks, Monica. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for the introduction, it's a lot to live up to some fun. So I live in the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia, I've been married for 26 years have four kids, I'm not even going to try to count the pets that we have because our youngest Foster's kittens, and so they're in and out. And it's just a lot to keep track of. But needless to say we have a lot of fun in the house. And it's always very active, which is great. I came to Bloomerang, about eight years ago, a little bit more than that now, and really wanted to work in the software space and was drawn to Bloomerang because of the mission, which is to help nonprofits raise more money. I love the clients that we get to work with, I really enjoy helping those people maybe improve some processes, they get a little bit better fit with a software that's a little easier for them to use. And that, in turn allows them to spend more time on relationships, on marketing and communication, on getting their website up to speed, all kinds of stuff like that, to really help them get out there and raise more money for those really, incredibly important missions that they are in charge of supporting. So I started off as a salesperson, and now the partnerships manager where I work with our national accounts. So if you think Habitat for Humanity, Boys and Girls Club, things like that with a local presence, but a national office, my job is to try to help make sure those groups are getting the most out of their relationship, their partnership with us. And then of course to try to go get some new new users as well. So it's a lot of fun, and I get to do things like this and have wonderful conversations with fun people. And I'm looking forward to doing that today with you.
Monica Pitts 4:05
So is this like your first foray into the nonprofit zone? Or had you like worked with nonprofits before?
James Goalder 4:14
It's a good question. And I'm gonna gonna say kind of sorta, a little bit. So for the oh my gosh, 15 years ish. Previous to this. I was working for a company called LifeTouch, and we worked with churches, so not nonprofits, but similar. There's some overlap there in the Venn diagram. And I spent a lot of time in churches with more of a photography approach. But once you know the iPhone kicked in, and everyone can take their own pictures, and all of that then pretty quickly decided yeah, it's probably not not going to last much longer. So decided to go for software by myself here.
Monica Pitts 4:56
So what was the thing that drew you into software? I've always has been interested in that because like, building a website is a little bit like building software. But then there's times where I'm, like I advise my clients will be like, I want my website to do all these things. And I'm like, actually, no, that's not what you need, you need a donor management system, or you need a membership, like management system, you don't need like, Good, yes, you need a web presence. And it should be amazing. But sometimes software is the right answer. Because from a, from a developer perspective, we have to be able to imagine every eventuality and how it might all unfold in the future. And so when you're building, you have to leave all these doors open for what someone might or might not do. And clients don't always know exactly what they want when they get started. And usually, when you buy into a software, you're getting something that has already been through the battle testing, and it has all the doors already open. You know, he got it, customize it as you need it. Like what brought you there?
James Goalder 5:59
Yeah, it's such a good question. And some really good points, I think. So I've been in sales for a while. And I've used good CRMs. And I've used not good CRMs. And the difference in my job. And really, in my life around that job is huge when there's a good tool in place that does what it's supposed to do. And I don't have to spend hours wondering, you know, how am I going to get the data from this system over here? Or how am I going to run that report or whatever it is that I need to do? It's an it makes an enormous difference just in overall life and enjoyment, happiness, low stress levels, all of that stuff. And so I decided I wanted to find a system that would make people's lives a little easier would make their jobs a little more run a little more smoothly, is in this nonprofit world that is so impactful. With the missions that they have, if I can represent a product that hopefully will make them to be able to engage in fundraising be able to build those relationships a little bit better, a little more easily that will allow them to raise more money. Yeah, that sounds pretty good. that'll that'll keep me getting up in the morning and wanting to get back and do that work. So yeah, that's that's kind of what I was looking for. I like I like what you said about finding the right product for the right fit the right company, or you know, all of that it's so important. And we're not the right fit for everybody. But for the people that we are right fit for it's, it's great, it works really well for everyone.
Monica Pitts 7:38
You're a problem solver. I like that. To be a problem solver to be on the may create team. It's like a core value that you have to share or else you will not like working from a create, which that's my company. So it's just like I love finding people that love to solve problems. And I feel like one of the problems that nonprofits are facing right now is finding easy and relatable ways to create transparency in their messaging, and put it out there in a way that's really consumable. That I feel like you can have transparency in your marketing, but then I always think you should have transparency on your website. And it's a little different for nonprofits than it would be for businesses because businesses aren't going around. And I don't have to show a pie chart to somebody about how I distributes the money in my company. But you could imagine I'm a service provider. So it all goes to payroll. Right. All goes. But in a nonprofit, nobody wants to see that. So So today, I was hoping that you could take us through a couple of tips to improve transparency for our nonprofits. So start at the top where where would you tell people to start looking for ways to improve transparency? Or maybe tell them what it is like in case of listeners like what are they talking about?
James Goalder 9:00
Yeah. So there are a lot of elements of this. And I'm sure we'll talk through a lot of them as we go. One of the big core ones I think for most nonprofits is donors especially want to see and know where their donations are going. So are they donating to an organization were kind of what you just said a minute ago, Monica, where 90% of those gifts go towards payroll. That's not usually how donors like to think about that gift. They are trying to impact their community. They want to change their own little world around them or the big world depending on the scope of the nonprofit, but they want to make a difference and they want to know that Oh, okay. This you know, this organization, tutors, kids after school. And 90% of my gift is going to actually go to those programs not just to salaries or electrical bills or You know, all those overhead things. And we all know and donors all know that those are necessary, you have to have those things. But they want to know that when they make a gift that that gift is really having the impact that they have in mind. So how can we communicate that to them? How can we show them? That? Yes, there is that pie chart. And yeah, the electrical bill is really important without paying that we're not going to be able to to her a lot of kids, and we've got to have salaries to cover the people who scheduled the volunteers to come in. And I mean, all of that stuff is necessary. But we should hopefully be able to put something up on the website, that would should give them a breakdown of how their money will be used. And leave them feeling like, Oh, good. Okay, great. Well, I feel good about this. Yeah, I'm going to continue forward with my donation, because I feel like you're using the, the gift that I'm making in a responsible manner. And I feel like I am going to make that impact that I'm looking to make. So I think that's a big, big part of thinking through and kind of how to get started with a little more transparency on our website.
Monica Pitts 11:03
It's like, proof of concept, almost like, hey, we said, we were gonna do this. And then we did this. And so I always like to think of the donations like an investment. So they're investing in your organization, and they want to see their money grow. Like if it's that literal, right. And so however you use their money, it should be growing the purpose and the mission of the organization. And, and it's an investment. And if you think about it that way, then it's not so much like asking for a donation, you're allowing people to invest in the future.
James Goalder 11:37
That's exactly right. I think it's important. One of the best ways to think about this is to think about the fact that every study that I've ever seen on this has said that more than anything, donors want to know what their donations are going to accomplish. Specifically, they would really like to know who they are helping. So privacy concerns exist, please, you know, take all of that into account. But if you're able to couple this transparency information, and show those pie charts with a breakdown for where their gifts are going, if you're able to couple that with some stories of the people whose lives are being impacted, make them anonymous, if you need to, you know, understand all of that. But if you're able to couple that together, you're not only providing the donors with it, that transparency that they are desiring, you're actually going to deepen the connection that you have with them, because they're going to read those stories. And they're going to hopefully be moved by that and say, Oh, wow, this organization gives a lot of the of my donation to their mission. And look at these great stories of these people that I'm impacting, that I'm helping to change their life and change the community and all of that those are the things that donors want to read about, they want to see. So when you start thinking about framing some information on our online donation pages specifically, or the About Us pages that are sort of ubiquitous on nonprofit websites, you think about framing those pages through that lens, really, pretty quickly, you see the direction that you can take this and and how you can be more transparent, while at the same time deepening that engagement that you're going to have with those donors.
Monica Pitts 13:16
Now, we definitely need to show it through our website, because that's part of our story. Right. But I think that there's also a ways that they can share their transparency that are a little more maybe even grassroots like one of the things that you had mentioned was hosting open forums with stakeholders, can you tell me what one of those might look like and give me some pointers? Maybe?
James Goalder 13:40
Sure. It's, it's such a great way to get feedback from the community, right? So a lot of times, what we see is nonprofits kind of going off and doing their thing. And they're really focused and they're doing amazing work. They're they're focused on whatever their mission is, and they're doing amazing work. But they're not really including the community and any conversations around strategic planning, or direction of the organization or anything like that. And it's a real missed opportunity. If you take time to engage people in the community, those those stakeholders, whether they are using your services, they've benefited from your services, they're volunteering with you, whatever their role is, if you take time to solicit that feedback, and really build that communication line. You'll be shocked at how much good information and how many good ideas these people have for how you can adjust a couple of things here and there and maybe reach more people, or this area over here that we've never really thought about. But oh, wow, that makes a ton of sense. Yeah, we should probably redirect a few resources over that way because we can reach a lot of a lot of folks there. So think about soliciting that kind of feedback from different stakeholders in the community. And you can do Got a variety of different ways. I mean, the what we're doing right now on a zoom call is fantastic, that's great, you can get a whole bunch of people together virtually, you could do it in person, you could have a forum on your website that allow people to leave feedback, send an email out to people with a survey and ask them, you know, a couple of questions and make sure that you leave a place there for them to respond. So all kinds of different ways. But I think the really important message there is, think about how you can engage with your community, whatever that community looks like, in a couple of different ways to get some input from them before, really before you embark on your next strategic planning session, or, you know, kind of whatever directional venture looking at the organization with,
Monica Pitts 15:46
I think that's powerful on a number of levels, because people love to be heard. And it's and when you listen to them, they give you great feedback. One of the things we were just talking about in another podcast interview was that planning in a vacuum really sucks. Like you just, it's hard to do you have like only this perspective from your silo, and especially when nonprofits come to me and they say, Well, my biggest challenge is that people don't really understand what they do. We don't understand how much we do they don't understand the need or purpose. Well, especially, I feel like having those open conversations with stakeholders in your community can help you get a lot of feedback on how you can use words differently. Because I cannot tell you how many nonprofit websites I've went to and I've read the first page and gone I have no idea what you do. I just know there's a picture of water at the top done like that? I don't know. It's because they use this language that's like, that can mean so many things. And it's very flowery but very arbitrary. And other people don't know like, if they're not in your shoes, I could do the same thing. I could use a lot of tech words I'm sure you could do. But nobody would understand what we were talking about. I mean, it's not any fun. If you don't know what people are saying.
James Goalder 17:09
Yeah, absolutely. We have a dictionary at Bloomerang that we circulate from time to time with all of the jargon that we use internally, with the reminder that please don't use this in front of clients or customers, because they're not gonna have any idea what you're talking about. So you want those checks kind of reality checks every now and again. Oh, that's right, I need to remember, Words matter. And I need to make sure I'm communicating effectively. You're exactly right.
Monica Pitts 17:35
I love the dictionary idea. That would be like, especially if you had volunteers, managing your social media or writing your newsletters, or even just like out in the public doing work, if they understood the words that you use to describe the like, any number of things, right, and you were all using a common vocabulary. That's a pretty powerful thing. Like, Yep,
James Goalder 17:56
I agree completely. And it really all comes back to what we were talking about a minute ago that you want to effectively communicate what the impact is that you're having and what your mission is. So if you're using these jargon terms, and all of that, if your website's not very clear, if you just see a picture of water, for instance, then you're not communicating that well. And you're probably losing some potential engagement, maybe even some potential donors, because you're not clear about what it is that you're doing and what you need their help to do.
Monica Pitts 18:27
So one of the things that I feel like, okay, so when we talk about transparency, and we're saying, Hey, here's the story, this transformation, that's like, that's a huge part of your messaging. But the other part of your messaging is proving that there's a need for what you do, right. And I feel like there has to be some level of transparency as you're building your case, for need, you know, especially when you might have a service. So one of the one of my local nonprofits is a human trafficking coalition. And I think it's really important that they say, Hey, this happens here, like in Missouri, because people don't think it does. And so then they can put you know, data with it, which is really common to be like, hey, you know, along with the story of of people overcoming it to be like, hey, X percentage of people like or X number of people this happens to So are there some tips that you have that might keep that, that data like really believable? Because Because if it's a really big number, it's like, not? You might doubt it, right?
James Goalder 19:31
Absolutely. I know, I've looked at numbers on websites before and thought channeling my inner Seth Meyers and Amy Poehler for people my age, and said, really, really, like that doesn't seem right. And so yeah, I think it's really important to make sure that you take it back to college days, cite your work, share your work. So if you're citing or using statistics and and you're not referencing, where those numbers come from, there's always the chance then that someone's going to look at those and say, really. And if you're not, if you start to lose just a little bit of credibility there at the, at the beginning, they'll start to kind of pick through everything and look through that lens. So the more that you can provide statistics that are backed by credible studies and research, and you get them off a good website, and all of that, and then make sure that you provide those links back, that'll just build the credibility for you in the eyes of the people that you're trying to reach. and good things will happen from there. Because without that, again, they'll start questioning and it'll start snowballing.
Monica Pitts 20:44
Now, one of the other things that you guys mentioned in this article, because I have articles, it's all about tips to improve transparency that we're putting up on the may create blog, and it's already out there, it was out there before we ever did this interview. So that's exciting. is to be honest about areas for improvement, right? Because nobody is perfect. And so let's talk a little bit about that. Because like, you can say we're making this huge difference. But I think that it is pretty powerful to admit that you're not perfect, and that you know where you aren't so that you can work towards it.
James Goalder 21:25
Absolutely. So I think we have a tendency in this sector to sometimes overly emphasize the wins, while not necessarily acknowledging, oh, we kind of messed up there. And I think it's incredibly powerful to be able to say, Oh, we missed steps that didn't go the way that we thought it was gonna go. Here's what we learned from that. And acknowledging the mistake, along with the lessons that you learned, I think is key to winning back the trust. And you'll find then with that extra layer of transparency, or another layer of transparency, you'll find I think that people will engage more and trust more, because as you just said, Monica, everyone makes mistakes. So no one's expecting you to be perfect when you say, yep, really messed that one up. We shouldn't have had that event the same weekend as the Final Four. That was a disaster. And we have learned from that we are not doing that. Again, we will more carefully look at the calendars next year. That can have a really positive impact. It were it humanizes you people realize, oh, yeah, gosh, I did something done with my schedule last week, too. And it makes you more relatable. So yes, I would I agree with that completely. The other area that you I think that you you want to be able to address, when applicable is if you're getting GuideStar Charity Navigator or someone like that to look at your website, look at your communications, your PCI compliance with your online donations, all of that stuff. And they'll kind of grade you out in different areas. And it's okay to share those grades, even if they're not as good as you want them to be. As long as you're taking steps to move in the right direction and improve those scores. That's a good thing. It's good to acknowledge that, okay, we've had an independent audit, or someone come in from the outside, and they looked, and they said, Okay, we're doing well, here, here and here. This area, yeah, you probably want to make a few changes, here are some suggestions, make that acknowledgement and then talk about the steps that you're taking to make improvements there, those can do a really great job of building trust over the long run.
Monica Pitts 23:39
Now, I know that we're coming into fourth quarter, which, for all of my nonprofit friends is usually a pretty big endeavor into a year end giving campaign. And I was just wondering if you could give us any insights on how we might use transparency in our messaging and marketing and fundraising, to have maybe even better outcomes from this urine campaign.
James Goalder 24:06
So one of the fun things that I've seen a couple of nonprofits do in the last couple of years is share their outcome from the previous year. Right, so So let's look at year end giving after giving Tuesday, and these are the results we had last year. And this is what we're what we were able to do with that last year. So not only the outcomes and the results, but what was done with that, what did we accomplish with that, and then talk through what you want to do this year. So last year, we raised x this year, we want to raise x plus y and here's why that extra amount is so important. Here's what we're going to be able to do with it. So that sort of transparency. Telling people you know, are talking about your goals that you have internally, can be really, really helpful. I will throw a word of caution in there. Don't make the goals of bow You. So I see a lot of those emails come through in December where we're trying to beat our goal from last year, we've got 24 hours left, and we need another $10,000. Because we want to make meet this goal. Yeah, I don't care. Just to be really blunt, I don't care, I get those emails, and I delete them really quickly, because I don't care. Now the organizations that come in, and they say, we're trying to meet our beat our goal from last year, because it's going to allow us to reach 200 Extra families and provide food for you know, for them for the coming three months, or whatever messaging you come up with, yeah, I'll open those emails. And sometimes I'll donate to them. So tie the goal to what some of your service, whatever your mission is tied to something like that. And that's going to increase the likelihood of success a great deal. But if you if you think about year end giving in terms of those stories that we know, donors want to hear, sharing with them what you did last year, what do you want to do this year, and why that's important, I think can really be pretty successful for most most nonprofits.
Monica Pitts 26:06
And I really think to that, if you are planning your urine giving campaign, and hopefully you're doing it now, because right now we're recording this and it's September. Remembering that you have months leading up to this to prep people for this ask right to to show them the transparency that they need to see, to build the trust, to listen to make sure that you know, you have said what needs to be said. So they can jump on board and make that gift at the end of the year. I think that just I hear a lot from nonprofits that they, they just they don't want to send as many emails, everybody just unsubscribes just doesn't really work. And I'm like, Yeah, but the only time that you send an email is to ask for money. So I guess what I'm saying is right now, maybe send an email that doesn't and and use these transparency tips in that email to show them that you really did your best with their investment to further your mission and make a difference. And so more than once,
James Goalder 27:18
a super quick story just to backup everything you just said, because I think you're spot on I, my wife and I donated long story to a Cancer Foundation near where we live, because we know the development director and all of that, and they sent a thank you email with a video embedded in it, where the executive director said thank you, she actually shared what they were going to do with a gift. And you know, where the greatest areas of need were, they were very transparent with the video did not ask for anything else. There wasn't a link in the email, there was no ask in the video, it was just thank you so much for this, we really appreciate it. I, I got it. It's like, oh, this is awesome. This makes me feel great. As a donor, I love this. And I actually saved the email and showed it to my wife instead of you know, doing what I normally do, and deleting it too quickly before she gets a chance to see it. So those things can be incredibly impactful, incredibly impactful, your donors will really appreciate that sort of thing. If you go that extra mile for them. I love that love everything you just said,
Monica Pitts 28:20
I 100% agree. And there's one nonprofit that we've worked with for years, and every year we donate money to have them build a cart and take it to their hand powered cart. They make hand powered carts for people with disabilities in other countries. So they deliver these carts. So every year we donate enough money to cover the price of a cart. And every year we get a picture of the person who got our cart. And I love it, my whole staff loves it. And if you decorate the cart, like if you paint it and put all kinds of decorations on it, they will make you a video of the person receiving the cart using the cart. It is so powerful. Like the whole my whole staff was in tears. We were like we did this for someone and all we did was paint it and put unicorns on it. But it felt like so incredible. To have that experience. Amazing. That's awesome. So cool. So one question for you before we wrap up. So I mean, Bloomerang houses a metric ton of data for people I could imagine, right? I haven't actually gotten to see the report, but I always get really jazzed about data. Which is weird because I'm a designer. Weird. Anyway. Welcome to the Amen. Nerds are nerds. So I just wanted to ask you like some of the ways that a donor management system or maybe even Bloomerang in particular, can help you find the things that you need to find like in that way software to make your life easier so that when it comes time to make the messaging that proves that you're doing what you're supposed to do that, that it like can come through and you don't have to export it all into a spreadsheet and then start
James Goalder 30:13
adding, sorting and filtering and all Yeah, now we've all been there. Like I said, I've used plenty of not so good CRMs No, I think that's a really important point. If your software is and allowing you to run those reports, and get that data, get those snapshots that you need. Find finding new software, if that's, that's critical. So the example I always use with this is my wife and me, I am a very story driven donor, right. So if you appeal to me emotionally, if you tell me stories about who's being impacted all that I'm gonna I don't write checks anymore. But I'm going to put my credit card number in on your on your website. That's, that's how you get to me, my wife is much more analytical, much more data driven. So if you can share with her, the impact that her gift is going to have how many people it's going to impact the level of service that's going to be provided, what the gifts looked like last last year versus this year, all of the stuff that we've been talking about here, if you can run those reports in your database and share that information with her, she's much more likely to donate at that point. So make sure that you're appealing to both of us in your messaging, on your website, all of that good stuff, make sure that you kind of have both of those bases covered. And if you're not able to pull that information out of your donor database, and tell those stories with the data to back it up. Yeah, it's probably time to think about chopping around a little bit and seeing what else is out there.
Monica Pitts 31:49
Yeah, shopping and moving between systems really stinks. I have switched three email service providers in the past, like five years. And now the one that I have does a whole bunch of stuff. I still don't know if I love it, but I'm not. I am not switching. Because I don't want to like, because I'm in so much pain with the idea of switching that like Yeah, so I guess that would be another thought too. If you're just in the like, if you're currently living in, I use square to manage all of my donors, like if that's where you are, or if you are using a spreadsheet, like a series of spreadsheets, when you pick your next system, make sure you really, really vet it with what you need it to do in the future. Because moving into it sucks, like quite frankly. But the outcome of it is amazing, right? But then not having to do it again. That's even more amazing.
James Goalder 32:51
Exactly. One of the things we're most proud of at Bloomerang is that we have a I'm gonna forget that. But something like 97% customer retention rate or something like that, because to your point, switching databases, listen, we've got a wonderful team, I do not want to select them at all, our implementations are fantastic. They're wonderful people, they do a great job. But it's a lot of data, you have to sort through and sift through and make decisions. Do we want to keep this? Do we want to keep that? It's a lot, it's a lot of work. And the less you have, the less often you have to move the better. So yes, it's a great point, find a system that speaks to you that you really liked that you think, yeah, I think I can use this for a while because you don't want to. Once you once you've landed somewhere, try to try to stay there as long as you can.
Monica Pitts 33:41
It's like cleaning out the attic, or your storage space. Never fun. You like to touch things and you're like I remember that person. And I haven't talked to them in 10 years. Can I delete their information? I don't know. Maybe I should keep it. I have emotional value in this person's name.
James Goalder 33:59
It's so hard to separate you're 100% right?
Monica Pitts 34:02
Got it. Marie Kondo it all right. Exactly. Well, um, to wrap up, why don't you let people know how they can get a hold of you or learn more about Bloomerang. And your services, obviously, they can go out to meet create.com. And they can read this blog post that is going to accompany this really fun podcast, but where else?
James Goalder 34:24
Yeah, our website is bloomerang.com. We're on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, all that good stuff. So please find us there. You're welcome to email me. I'm
[email protected]. More than happy to chat with anyone anytime. So yeah, find us. We're out there for sure.
Monica Pitts 34:41
Well, thank you so much for hanging out with me today. And thank you, everybody for hanging out and talking transparency and even getting a little geeky with us. I always enjoy a fellow nerd.
Monica Pitts 34:57
Until next time, go forth and mark it with Purpose, to get a copy of the shownotes. And all those links that we just heard from our guests, head on over to May create.com, and may
[email protected]. And of course, I have to tell you the things that all podcasters are supposed to tell you at the end of your episode. Like, if you thought this was awesome, you could subscribe. And then I would like get to tell you when I have new stuff for you to learn and new episodes and new people to meet new stories to tell. And of course, I would really love it if you left your review. So head on over to May create.com. For those show notes, ma y ecreat.com. Or maybe even contacted my team about building that next website. We can do it for you. And we even have our better than DIY website program that teaches you to plan and build your own website. So head on over to make create.com ma yecreat.com I'll meet you over there.
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