How to tell your boss that part of your job sucks.

Monica Pitts 00:09 So how to tell your boss that part of your job sucks? When I brought this topic up to our design team in our week, on our weekly design meeting, they immediately said that some jobs just plain suck. And I think that, yes, some design jobs really do suck, like I've done some of them when I just had to prep Open House ads weekly on repeat for the newspaper, that job sucked, like there was no creativity in it. It was not any fun, right? And there was just not a whole lot that I could do about it, other than streamline the process and make templates for myself, right? And it turned out that I'm just not the right fit for that job. I need more freedom. I need to get to solve problems in my job. I'm not just a doer. Okay, so that's cool, and they were right. There are some jobs like that, and we'll discuss some of that in this episode, but the majority of our conversation, we want to focus on the jobs that are pretty darn good, like, jobs that you actually like with just a few pieces that get frustrating, like, not the job that you want to quit yet, it's the job that you're willing to fight to change. And some people view speaking to their boss about the annoying parts of their jobs as conflict, and that's we've actually done a lot of training at MayeCreate on conflict resolution and how having those tough conversations is part of being a good team. I personally view it as a public service announcement. I know Stacey does too, Stacy Brockmeier 01:37 for sure, definitely a public service announcement. Please come talk to us Monica Pitts 01:42 like in my opinion, and I know that I'm not your boss, but in my opinion, your boss should be thanking you for bringing it to their attention, because you're not bothering them. You have the mindset of an entrepreneur, which in most workplaces, I feel like should be rewarded. And there's one example that I lean into pretty hard whenever I'm explaining to people that I want them to come to me with these complaints. And the one I always give is we onboarded all of our email marketing to MailChimp, and we had all these automations. And yes, I'm going to throw a MailChimp under the bus, but it's not the first episode I've done that in, and I I worked through the initial steps. We validated that it was going to be a good program. I handed it all off to Katie, and Katie worked in it for, I don't know how many months or years, and then I had to get in one day when Katie wasn't there and do her job. And I was like, This is terrible. It takes 17 steps to do any one thing, and it was just a huge roadblock. I didn't even like the user interface. I was like, Katie, this is terrible. And she's like, I know it takes forever. And I'm like, Oh my God, how have you not told me about this? I have been wasting so much of your time and my time and my money having you work in this system, when you could have just been like, I know we've added it, but it sucks. Let me show you why. And then we could have picked something else, right? And Stacey, I know that you have seen examples of this too. Stacy Brockmeier 03:08 Yeah, I had a really long time employee that was so incredibly amazing at her job, but she was very much a doer, and she never complained about anything. She was always willing to take on another task. And at the time, we were scheduling everything on Google Calendar. I mean, this has been a minute ago, and there were lots of inefficiencies in our process. And ultimately, this employee had a family crisis happening that she was very much in the middle of and had to be there for a family to help out, and she couldn't work as many hours, and ultimately ended up leaving. But really, had she complained, or, like, told me that her job was taking forever? I know there are so many things we could have done to make it more efficient, and so in that instance, she was amazing at her job, and I really would have listened and loved if she would have complained a little bit more, because she was amazing, Monica Pitts 04:09 I know. And her leaving actually was an It was while we cried for a while and hung out underneath my desk. But then after that, we were like, we we we need to make things better. And it was a real swift kick in the pants. Stacy Brockmeier 04:24 It was a huge catalyst for change, like a huge catalyst for change, maybe one of the biggest mayecreate has ever had. Monica Pitts 04:31 Yeah, and though, in these situations, we if they would have just told us that could have been the catalyst for change, right for both of them. And so instead of having somebody leave, or me getting in there and doing it myself, I would have loved it, if they just would have come to me, right? And so in both of those examples, note that both Stacey and I were talking about a service that we used, or part of our process, the tasks of a job, not a part. Person, okay? So if a person is what's making your job suck, that's a whole nother issue, and we would have to tackle that in another conversation. You can't control the other person or how they do their job, or how they talk to you, you can only control yourself, things that I tell my middle school and high school kids, like, you can't control them. You can only control you, right? So in this conversation today, we're talking about taking ownership of the things you can potentially control and make changes around Stacy Brockmeier 05:31 so I'm going to give a caveat. You cannot just go to your boss with every single little thing that pisses you off, and then call it being an entrepreneur or having an entrepreneurial mindset, you have to take a step back. You have to have a conversation with yourself. Monica and I are huge advocates for like, taking ownership of what you do. I think the if we were to ever talk about employees that were interesting or have gone it's usually the ones that take ownership in what they do, and even the mistakes that they make that we love and we miss the most. So make sure that you're having a conversation with yourself, maybe even have a conversation with a co worker who's in the same role as you are. However, be careful with that too, but just use some other people in your life to get a different perspective. Maybe that's a good friend, someone who's removed from the situation, but is really good at coming up with solutions there. They would be called an Ideator at MayeCreate. So that's an interesting thing. Don't just decide that you're going to go to your boss and say, I don't like this, this, this, this, this, this, make you make sure that you're planning that conversation just a little bit better. So I like to use some goals to kind of guide that conversation a little bit better. So the first thing is, is the problem? Is it a viable problem that can be solved, or is it just something that you need to get over? You know, there are things in my job that I don't necessarily love doing, but it's stuff that absolutely has to get done, and it's for the betterment of our company, even though it might not be the most fun task. So some things you just got to get over. But then I always, and you can ask anyone on my team, if you have a problem, come to me with a solution. So the second goal is always identify a solution that can benefit everybody involved, involved in the situation. Because if you come to your boss with a solution and not just a complaint, it is going to make that situation better, and that conversation is going to go a lot better, because it's not just you being a complainer, like you've actually thought through it, right? And then the third thing is kind of deciding what you want out of that conversation. So what is going to be the best course of action? What do you think is going to be the best solution? Where are we going to go from here? So I do in saying that, man, I do get that you may not see solutions, because we do have people on our team who are not ideators, or maybe they don't have enough experience to propose a solution, but often, like So Monica and I have hired consultants in the past, and they don't necessarily know every single aspect of our company or what like The solution to the problem is that we're facing, but often their job is to bring up all the roadblocks that need to be removed, and how to remove the roadblocks so that we can get to the the outcome that will benefit everyone. And so that's kind of where you need to be in this situation, if you don't have the solution. Okay, what it what are some changes? Or what are the things that are causing, the frustration, the annoyance, the problem, the task to take forever, and maybe that is the system that you're using or the process that you're using. But if that's the case, you might want to frame your conversation a little bit differently while still doing some self reflection and some preparation before going and talking to your boss. Monica Pitts 09:26 So exactly, you aren't supposed to have always the answers when you go into this conversation. If you have answers, definitely provide them as part of the framework of the conversation. But if you don't have them, you know the conversation is going to know differently. It doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen, though. Definitely bring it to someone's attention that could potentially be smart enough to solve the problem. Stacy Brockmeier 09:50 Absolutely so in moving into this like thought of having a conversation for yourself, Monica, I have some questions for. You. So what would you suggest if someone is new and they don't understand the system yet, like, what? But they're really frustrated, they're annoyed, they are not sure that the they can keep doing the job the way that they are doing. What do you suggest to them? Monica Pitts 10:17 I think that if you are new, you might not understand the whole picture yet, and that's okay, right? When new hires immediately start and they're just trying to adjust our processes, it is a red flag for me. I know it is for Stacey as well. It's kind of like when you hire our clients, they will hire a new marketing director, and then they come in and they decide that they have to overhaul everything, and in the animal world, I feel like they would just be peeing on their territory to show everyone that they're in charge. But the person before you held that role, and they might not have been a total idiot. We need to learn from the steps that they made like live in their shoes for a little while. There was likely a reason why they did things a certain way. It doesn't mean that you always have to do them, but it does mean that if you try walking in their shoes for a little while, you will learn more and actually maybe be able to make an even better suggestion on how you can modify the process. Moving forward, we have developed and modified our processes over the course of over 20 years. Does that mean that we need that they need improvement? Still? Yes, absolutely. Things change every single day, right? And sometimes a new person has the exact insight that we need to show us where they need to be modified. However, I do feel like new hires do better when they learn first to work through the process. It's an entire in its entirety, to experience why we do it the way we do it before trying to change it. Because they then they can see, like Stacey said, why some processes require a bit of discomfort along the way to guard against an entire dumpster fire down the road, right? So voicing complaints about a process you haven't worked through because you perceive it may be uncomfortable, right in this second, isn't the same as presenting a solution to actual discomfort in a process that you've done over and over again. That does not mean, and I would actually not respect you if you did not ask me questions about the process along the way. Ask why it's done this way, instead of saying that sucks, like right away, if that makes sense, because when you ask me why it's done a certain way, it shows me that you're a thinker and that you're learning about how the company works and that you want to do better, not just that you want to, you know, get territorial and try to change everything, because potentially you can, because we told you that we easily make changes. Stacy Brockmeier 12:45 That is so 100% true. Monica, so in like, on the account service side of things, we often will, like, set people's email up in a certain strategic way when they start, because it is imperative that people don't miss emails, and which means that you don't get to filter everything out of your email. You know, there's some things, but that's one thing where it's like, okay, you have to use your email this way until you get like, know, all of the nuances of the process, because different things come in differently, right? But one thing I will say that is, like, a super positive to this is when Britney started. So Brittany's been with MayeCreate, like, six months. I don't know. She maybe been here a month, and she was like, Well, why don't we implement the like, a document that's a client checklist. And Caitlin and I looked at each other like, we are maybe the stupidest people on the planet, because why did we never think about this. And so like Brittany, even though she'd only been here a month, like, had one of the like, best solutions that's probably helped our process so much this year. So don't be afraid to say stuff. Don't be afraid to be a thinker. Make sure you're asking questions. And also, just like, be careful about like, your suggestions. You know you can phrase them in a way that is like, Hey, I might see a hole in this, but I'm not really sure. Tell me more and not really turn your co workers off that way. Monica Pitts 14:13 Yeah, we'll talk about that in a few minutes, making a sandwich. Stacy Brockmeier 14:16 Yes, for sure. So, okay, so one thing that I know we do a lot is we see that a client is having a problem, or that a problem came up, and we jump right in, thinking it's ready to change. So Monica does, if there's something that's uncomfortable, does it really always need to change, yeah, Monica Pitts 14:42 or sometimes I'm just hungry. Stacy Brockmeier 14:46 Amen, sister, I just need something Monica Pitts 14:48 to complain about today. Maybe it's the 10th or 11th thing that didn't go right today. Because, like, the first three things to seven things, I can be like, okay, yeah, you know, whatever. Like, man. Okay, and then, like, there's the the tipping point, right? And so just ask yourself, was this the tipping point? Like, are we just pissed off right now? And that's okay for you to be pissed off right now. You have a right to do that. Go buy yourself a Coca Cola or a hamburger, or take a walk around the block, scream and the universe for a few moments, and then move on. Instead of trying to reinvent a wheel that already spins and works. I think that that piece of self awareness is the key when evaluating change instead of just wasting time or being bitchy, Stacy Brockmeier 15:32 it makes me wonder, how many people in our like complex here think I'm totally insane because I will, like, call Monica because I'm really frustrated or things aren't going right. And I'll, like, walk around the like, building people are like, and I'm probably like, not I I'm not a quiet person. Like, obviously you can tell that, but it's like, so yeah, go take that walk. Make sure that it's not something that is just an exterior challenge causing that. So I think the next question I have is like, is it recurring, or is it just one time? Is this something that is not quite right, right now, but it's usually okay? Monica, how do you handle those situations? Monica Pitts 16:20 I think that, like you said earlier, one of our coping mechanisms that mayecreate is just to jump in and fix it, because we're not adverse to change. And so usually one of us has to pull back and say, Has this happened before? And then we have to ask ourselves, like, what is the likelihood of it happening in the future? Like, how many dominoes had to fall into one another to make this actually like collapse, right? And sometimes it's like just a series of seriously unfortunate events, and the whole all the planets align and crap just gets busted, and we're like, Well, okay, so we don't really need to try to fix it right now. We'll just wait and see if it happens again. So and sometimes going through that rabbit hole, though, is kind of powerful, because when you look through all the things that you feel like you could have done differently to make it better, you realize you already do those things and they're already planned into your process. So it just like reaffirms that it was just a one time thing, but if the problem is reoccurring or recurring, sorry, guys, I'm I'm just going to say that word wrong. Love Myself, love you, recurring, I would start tracking it. We do this all the time, right? So how long does it take? And be honest with yourself, like, start a timer, write it down on a piece of paper, put it into a spreadsheet, right? What parts take the longest? It's a self awareness funnel here. What's the most annoying thing about it? Like that self awareness piece once again, like, when are you the most pissed off when you're doing the task, and then ask yourself, like, how did these things affect the bottom line, right? Um, and when you have some data around it, then you can take it to the boss and be like, it takes me 20 minutes to do this, and I do it 10 times a week. Think about all the other prospecting calls I could be making or following up on or whatever it is, if I didn't have to do this kind of thing, or, you know, yeah, so just evaluating the situation from all angles Absolutely. Stacy Brockmeier 18:33 I think another thing that's super important is like, is there a reason why it's done a certain way? Monica Pitts 18:40 Yeah, yeah, exactly because that's that's part of the working through the process at least a few times before deciding that you need to change it. The person in front of you was probably pretty smart, and they did it a certain way for a reason. I always like to ask myself, like, I'm upset about this, but if I changed it right now, who else would it impact? Like, how, why would that process be made that way? Is it just, is it just uncomfortable for me? Is it uncomfortable for everyone? If I adjusted it, could it be a win for everyone else too? Because it's not just about me and it's not just about you, right? Stacy Brockmeier 19:19 Yeah, and then the other side of it too is like, what changes do you need to ask permission to make? So is it something that you even need to ask your boss or complain to somebody? You're not complaining, you're bringing up great challenges. But do you even need to ask to make a change? Monica Pitts 19:38 Well, exactly. So we remember the designers were saying, some jobs just really suck, and so when I just had to make open house ads, I had templates. I created forms for people to submit the information, so that way I got it appropriately, and I didn't have to ask to change those things, like, who cared about the intake form, right? Who cared about me using a template? Versus? Designing it from scratch, right? So I was empowered to do those things. And so you can ask yourself, what would happen if your boss found out that you did it differently? Like, would they even care? Like, what's the worst thing that could happen? Would they fire you or they just ask you to do it the old way? I mean, if it doesn't impact anyone else, like you answered the question above, if it doesn't impact anyone else, and your boss has no clue how you're doing it, what does it matter if you do it differently? Right? And so like, for example, we have a communal fridge in the office, and at one point it was filling up with crappy, disgusting Tupperware, and you couldn't even fit anything else in it, and Kara decided that she was just going to give everybody four days to claim what was theirs. And after that, everything was going in the trash. And then she continued that once a month when we had, like, a really full office full of people, and she's our office manager. She didn't need my permission to do that. I just she's in charge of the office, okay? Like, why would I get mad about that? Right? She wanted to make our environment better. Thank you, Kara. I didn't have to manage it. I didn't spend any activity like or energy as it went on in the future. So I don't know. I just, Stacy Brockmeier 21:18 yeah, what can you well? And she was, she's always so good about giving warning, like, she's like, I'm not washing your dishes and I'm just gonna get rid of the things. But that you have, you have two or three days, you have four days, whatever it is, like, if it's not gone, it's gone, throw in your dish and everything in the trash. Now we did have the one time that someone did this, and they didn't give any warning, they just went in and threw everything away. And it was like, literally, people's lunch for the day. Don't be that person. It didn't go well at all. Like, literally, that person ended up digging through the trash because they threw away something that was, like, valuable to another employee, and so they got to go dumpster diving that day. So don't be that person. But yeah, asking, like, this was such a great example of Cara taking, like, ownership in it and just helping us all out, because it was getting pretty nasty. Monica Pitts 22:10 I do think that those two questions, though, like, is there a reason why it's done this way, and is it something that you need to even ask to change, are really tied together, because when someone's on vacation and you have to go in and check their email, for example, and it's set up in some convoluted way that you've never seen before. You literally have to learn how to check their email to do their job right when they do the exact same job that you do. And so that's like a reason, like we we check our email this way, or have to organize this way for a reason, and it's because you guys all share inboxes a lot of the time, right? Yeah, yeah. So then, no, it's not really something that you can just change on your own. Yeah? You know, I always tell people, I'm like, if, if I am doing your job while you're out of the office and I can't figure out how to do it because you're not following the process it well enough, then I'm going to be mad. Stacy Brockmeier 23:03 Like, sorry. Well, there's no, like, easier way to figure out if somebody's doing what they're supposed to be doing than doing their job when they're gone. Yeah. So I think the other thing too is like, is it worth it? Is it worth changing? Is it like, that big of a deal that you want to rock the boat for? Monica Pitts 23:22 Yeah, my dad. So my dad is the dean of a college, and he says all the time he's like, I'm here to win the war. So what that means is that every decision that he makes is a strategic decision about which battles he's going to fight and which ones he's going to let go because he wants to do the things that are going to make the most overall impact for the school, and taking on every single little detail would not push the needle forward for his school. It would just leave him like stuck on the hill with no army, Stacy Brockmeier 23:59 yeah, for sure. And then here's another Mindset question for you. It's kind of a doozy. Is it actually the job? That's the problem? Monica Pitts 24:12 Some people are just not the right fit, like we have some jobs that you have to be a very independent thinker for. And if you are not a good, independent thinker and problem solver, if you absolutely hate change, if you are not okay, when like stuff just changes randomly out online because Google or whoever named it in the interwebs, you are going to hate this job. It just is what it is. And so find another job that doesn't change all the time. Print T shirts. Like, it's cool, like, that technology progresses. It's just not progressing as quickly, right? And so, like, for example, I used to do Stacy's job. I hated it. So, like, when I hired Stacey, I don't even know, 1415, Years ago, I was selling years ago, when she started taking over pieces of my job bit by bit that I didn't have to do anymore. And so I would hate doing Stacey's job any day I did it. But Stacey, on the other hand, would probably actually enjoy my job for like, a few days or a week, and then she would be like, I am done with this crap. I'm brained out my spreadsheets. Stacy Brockmeier 25:25 I mean, I had to do it for like, two and a half hours yesterday, or, like, not Monica's job, but like, I had to do tasks like Monica's like, for two and a half hours yesterday. I was like, I'm done with it, yeah? Monica Pitts 25:37 So just be honest with yourself, like, sometimes this task is just sucks. Yeah, not, not for you. Stacy Brockmeier 25:50 Lost my place. Um, so I think the other thing too is like, who deciding who is the right person to, like, start the change. Um, is that you, or is that someone else? So tell me, like, when somebody might not be the right person to initiate change, Monica Pitts 26:12 if you're the complainer or if you are the office clown, like, if you are, if you're, like, just not serious about anything, right? Yeah? Like, so if you're the complainer and you just complain all the time about everything from the minute that you walk in the door, and some people are just like that, we try not to hire them. Or if you are, yeah, like, if you're just not serious about anything, it's hard to take that person seriously. So like, for example, as a teenager, I was really a pain in the butt. Just ask my parents reflecting on it, I'm like, damn, was it a pain in the butt? Okay, call up Deb, she'll tell you. So whenever my brother and I wanted something, we would talk about it. And then he was the delegate. He went and talked to our parents about whatever change or thing that we wanted, because we knew how much more likely they were to do it if he asked, yeah, it's true. We were very strategic about it. Like, here's the deal. The goal is to get what you want. It like, and as long as you're playing by the rules, it's fine. How you go there, right? It's not the glory of making the change. I don't need to win. Me personally. I just want the change to be made, and so I can send Travis and do it, and the change gets made, so I get what I want, so I win, right? Me being involved in it is it doesn't matter, pass the ball to the dude that's open. That's how you win. Stacy Brockmeier 27:45 Pretend that you're playing basketball, and maybe you're not the person who should be taking the shot, Monica Pitts 27:50 because there's a dude that's open Stacy Brockmeier 27:53 well, and I think too, just in this respecting the like chain of command too. So it would be very weird in our group if, like, Brittany came to you and said, I want to change this about the process. And she hadn't come to me first, you know. So it's like, I think it's just knowing who to talk to, when to talk to them, that kind of thing too. I mean, you're still initiating the change. You're still the person who's like, starting the ball rolling. It's just that, okay, how do we get it actually done? Is a super important question to ask yourself. So and then on the flip side of that, like, what if your boss says yes, like to you or to the person you designated, or, you know, however that worked out. Like, are you really willing to make the change happen? Like, are you going to push it through to the end? Monica Pitts 28:50 Yeah, because there are times where I'm like, Man, this really sucks. It needs to be done a different way, but I cannot be that driving force. Like, not right now I'm busy, and this is like an overhaul, and I don't have time to do it, and so I just need to put it on the future wish list, and then I can just go through this whole conversation that we just talked through and ask myself all these questions all over again and decide if it's actually worth dealing with, right? I know that sounds weird, but like sometimes it's like it feels so painful at the moment, but it could be because of all these external factors and, you know, and if I'm not willing to do it myself, personally, and take on all that extra work, then maybe it's not the time to do it right, and I can always reevaluate later, Stacy Brockmeier 29:36 yeah, because just because you go With a challenge, doesn't mean that that's the highest priority at the moment, and we're all we only have so much, like bandwidth, that's the word. We use a lot bandwidth to make changes, so timing is important. Are you willing to make the change? If that's important too? So. Yeah, those are the questions that we have for like, having a conversation with yourself, Monica Pitts 30:04 I feel like repeat them so that, yeah, can I repeat them really fast? Absolutely go for it. So in your conversation with yourself, you ask yourself, Am I new and do I understand the system in its entirety, yet? Does it really need to change? Is it recurring or just an instance? Is there a reason why it's done that way? Is it something that I even need to ask for change, or am I just looking for approval? Is it worth rocking the boat for? Is it actually the job, like, is it just not the job for me? Am I the right person to initiate the change, and if the boss says, Yes, am I willing to take the responsibility to facilitate the change right now? Stacy Brockmeier 30:48 Yeah, make sure you do that self evaluation. For sure. Monica Pitts 30:53 Yes, that's where we start with. Self Evaluation, my friends, yep. Stacy Brockmeier 30:57 Okay, so moving on to our next topic. We mentioned, like having a conversation with a co worker. So just remember, this is not you going home and talking to your husband. This is not just a griping session for you to air dirty laundry or whatever. This is an adult conversation. You are really trying to problem solve and discover the challenges and see if they are accurate and worth changing. It is not an emotion filled conversation, no, in any way, shape or form, you're going to stay adult. And when we mean that, we mean the adult ego state. So Monica, tell us a little bit about being like, about going into a conversation, staying adult. Monica Pitts 31:57 I have had a lot of conversations with my children about this actually, because they are emotionally charged teenage female girls, yes, okay, so there's lots of emotions flying around our house. You got a duck in the morning and you're going to get hit in the face with an emotion. And so I continually speak to them about ego states, which are really just modes or mind spaces like or even communication patterns that we slip into based on how we learn to think, feel and react, and they're pre programmed based on your past experiences, so they're very, very easy to slip into. If you're not aware of where you're going with it, right? You've all had someone say something to you, and then you immediately feel a rush of emotion. I physically feel it. Sometimes I see it. I see red. There is so much emotion coming out, right? And so there's many different ego states, but the one that we want to go into this conversation with is the adult ego state. Because the adult ego state is level headed and emotion free. And I always tell the girls, if you want your sister to do something for you. You got to treat her like an adult. You got to go in with an emotion free proposition. You need to focus on facts and logic and what's true now, instead of reacting to any past experiences or emotions like we're not yelling at her because she left her towel on the floor again, you want to borrow the shoes. You go in and ask about the shoes in a non emotional way, right? Because your boss's office is not like a drama filled WWE production, okay? And it's also not a teenage girl's bedroom. It's a business setting, and in a business setting, one of the things that we say around our office is the first person to go emotional loses the upper hand. So if you stay adult and you stay focused, what usually happens is the other person comes back to adult with you. So they'll get all emotional, but then they'll come right back to the adult ego state with you and hang out with you, if that's where you stay. So adult ego state. Do not be a teenage girl. Stacy Brockmeier 34:04 Great advice. So okay, now we're going to move into some of the questions that you should probably ask yourself, so or I'm sorry you're asking your co worker. And so the first question is really like, do they have the same frustration that you have tell us about that, Monica, Monica Pitts 34:22 they just might be doing the task a different way, and you might not know, like, this little trick or something, and so, or your interpretation of the process might be incorrect. And yeah, I I can't tell you, like, I'll be frustrated about something. I'll put it in Slack. Tyler will be like, oh, there's a keyboard shortcut for that. Or all you have to do is click on these three things and it'll select everything. Select everything that's the same color. And I'm like, well, aren't I stupid, you know? So I just didn't know well. Stacy Brockmeier 34:51 And a lot of times they've had more like, had experience in a different way, I want to say more experience, but experience in a different way that has. Has helped them evolve into doing something a little bit differently. So they may have the same frustration, or they may not so. So if they do it the same way that you do it, and it is frustrating, do they know why the task is done that way? So asking them, you know, what's the reasoning behind this? We're both frustrated. Why are we doing it like this? Monica Pitts 35:25 Yeah, and that's just going back to the earlier question. Together you guys would examine because two minds are usually better than one. Who else is this impacting? Is there another way that you could approach the task that might benefit both you and others, or at least not impact others negatively. It's just nice to put your heads together and see if there's like, a positive way that you can do it Stacy Brockmeier 35:47 absolutely well. And another question asked to ask them is like, how do they think that the boss or will react to this solution? Yeah, and again, present it. Monica Pitts 36:00 This is not an outpouring of emotion. You are not like it's this isn't a sitcom. It's not a drama. So but you have to know what might happen, right? In order to go in and be prepared to have a conversation about something you really want, you have to know who you're talking to and what potential reactions they might have. So that way, you can plan how you might handle those those reactions to get the desired outcome right. Something you talk about in sales all the time, and we talk about with our clients when we plan out the text for their websites, like, what are the things that people are going to complain about, like, how do we handle that? Stacy Brockmeier 36:42 Right? Well, and it's important to, like, talk about the objections that people might have too. Yeah, for sure, exactly. Monica Pitts 36:51 And I swear, if you So, this is going to sound funny, but not funny all at the same time, if, if your co worker isn't there, if you don't have a friend, you can bounce ideas off of you can ask these questions to chat GBT. I do it all the time when I'm writing website text, because I don't always know. I'm like, How will contractor react if I put this information up there? Would it be too much? Would I be talking down to them? Do they already understand these terms? Can I say it like this and chat GBT is like, actually, you're being great, or sometimes it tells me I'm being condescending and I didn't even know, right? So you can, Stacy Brockmeier 37:28 yeah, just, just remember to use your real intelligence with your artificial intelligence, yes, within that. So yeah, you can absolutely pretend that chat GBT is your like consultant friend, have a conversation with them. So I do think another, like, really great question to ask your co worker is if they have any alternatives, or if they can see any alternatives in the situation, yeah. Monica Pitts 37:57 And so, you know we're talking about talking to the co worker, you can also then move on to talking to a friend about this kind of stuff. And I know that, like my best friend Carrie and I, we run together twice a week, and we talk about her work challenges. She works in a hospital. She has surgery Stacy Brockmeier 38:16 on people I don't know anything about that I built very different than what we do. Monica Pitts 38:20 And you know, she doesn't build web pages, but we talk about each other's challenges, and then we come up with solutions. Heck, she was trying to decide if she wanted to be the head track coach at the school, and I, we were like, Well, let's think through it all. What what are the challenges that we're going to see? What are alternatives? What would happen if you didn't take this head track coach, like, job, you know, is there somewhere, some other way that you could be part of the team anyway? So I think that just having the outside input is powerful, even if they're not fully versed in what you do Stacy Brockmeier 38:54 well, because they may perceive conflict where you don't perceive conflict because you're approaching your boss about change like maybe that's a great question to ask them. You know, what objections do they think that your boss might have? Monica Pitts 39:09 Yes, and you know, you're having a conversation with your friend or your husband or significant other in a safe space. That is, that's the time to vent for a little while and then settle back into adult mode, so that way you can have that zero emotion problem solving conversation to get to some solutions that you might not have seen other ways, right? Stacy Brockmeier 39:35 Yeah, venting at work should be reserved for man, I have so many meetings today. I'm gonna have to switch between so many different, like, mindsets. It should not be, oh my gosh, did you see what she did today? Yeah, so frustrated with her. You know, that's for home. Like, if you really need to have that, like, toxic interaction, like, don't do it at work. It's gonna shoot yourself in the foot, for sure. Sure? Monica Pitts 40:00 Yeah. So the first step in deciding how you're going to tell your boss that part of your job sucks is all of this discovery. And I know it sounds like we've spent what we have spent, we spent a lot of time in discovery, my friends, but this really like sets the stage for the conversation that you will have with your boss, because you now should have uncovered all of the objections, the reasons and the alternatives that you could potentially propose, and you this, asking yourself these questions will allow you to really think through them and put together like your pitch. Like, ultimately, that's what it is like a pitch, right? Um, right? So as you approach your boss, I like to think about it like a sales meeting, not a bitch session, right? We've talked about that so many times. It's an opportunity for you to enhance your workplace and build rapport, really, with your boss. So that will only happen if you can show them what a great problem solver and a communicator you are. So your goal is to, remember, arrive with a solution or multiple solutions, and then present them in a way that your audience will best receive them. This is the same thing that teachers do. It's the same thing that marketers do. It's the same thing that sales people do. They all do this, and you are all three of those things. You are educating your boss about a problem that they might not even be aware exists. You are going to market your solution to them and then hopefully sell and close the deal. That's what you're all through things, right? So I think this all begins with picking the right time, and so like what we talked about with our examples earlier, had they come to us the right time, then we would have been able to start solving the problem years before, years before we sat underneath the desk and cried right? So Monica Pitts 42:12 the first step for timing is to evaluate your boss like an honest assessment of your boss, like you got you got to know them. Yeah, not an emotional assessment, but an honest assessment. Okay? And so as we were trying to think of how to explain the different types of bosses, you have to understand that Stacey and I are not really Libby watcher TV, watching people, but we wanted you to have people to latch on to. Stacy Brockmeier 42:38 We had to pull our office because we don't know enough characters on TV shows to to give you the picture that we wanted to give you. Monica Pitts 42:49 So I feel like there's a few different types of bosses. You have a data driven boss. Stacy is a data driven boss, for sure, if someone comes to you with a spreadsheet, you're like, yeah, yeah. In some ways, I'm a data driven boss. If you come like, Stacey and I will come up with an idea to solve a problem, and I'll be like, can you make a spreadsheet on that? And she's like, I have one already. Stacy Brockmeier 43:14 I got this. Let me pull it up for you. I'll show you the numbers. Monica Pitts 43:19 So when you go to talk to your data driven boss, bring your metrics, show the real numbers. Have a spreadsheet ready. No, I'm not even kidding. Bring a spreadsheet and examples of data driven bosses. Stacy, who were they? Who did say they were Stacy Brockmeier 43:34 Captain Raymond Holt from Brooklyn, nine, nine. He needs everything to be properly documented, structured. He needs to have all the evidence. If you bring the statistics, he's going to listen, and if you bring him feelings, and you'll get a lecture about proper procedure. So definitely important to stay adult with that guy. Monica Pitts 43:56 And then we have the big picture boss. Okay, so for the big picture boss, you need to stay big picture. Probably don't bring the spreadsheet, because I don't even like it might turn them off, quite frankly, like, bring a Stacy Brockmeier 44:12 couple key facts, not every detail, Monica Pitts 44:17 and so with them, you want to connect it to the team and company goals, show how it impacts your broader objectives, talk strategy, not daily annoyances, don't you don't have to give them specific examples, like 14 specific examples. You can offer it to them, but I would not make that part of my script. Yeah. Stacy Brockmeier 44:39 So an example of this one is Leslie from Parks and Recreation. So with her, everything connects to the larger mission of making Pawnee better. And so if you show her your idea that helps the team, helps the community, helps the vision, man, she's going to be all in. Monica Pitts 45:01 Yeah, you have some bosses that are just fix it bosses. They I am actually, in some actually, in most instances, I am this woman, okay, I think that you should just do it if you find that it's not gonna negatively impact anybody else. I think you should just do it and fix it. Just do it and fix it. Come to me with your solutions. If they're already tested, that's even better. You usually don't have to ask me for permission. You can ask for forgiveness if you screw it up, but if you ask me too much for permission, I'm actually annoyed with you. That's that's where I'm at with that. Stacy Brockmeier 45:41 Yeah, there are certain things I asked Monica for, and oftentimes, even between bouncing stuff back and forth between us, like we're just making sure it's a good idea, not necessarily asking permission, but definitely not like all like, where you want to keep the coffee in the office is not a Monica question. She does not care as long as she knows where it's at. It's all good. Monica Pitts 46:03 It just has to be in a logical spot where, if I dig for it, I can find it. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so then last but not least, we have the defensive boss. I had one of these at a bar that I worked for back in my 20s, and he was volatile. He did not like any suggestion. It was like a threat to his authority. If you made a suggestion like, Oh my goodness. So just be careful. They're going to take your some of your suggestions as criticism, potentially. So make sure that you start with what's working. Give them credit for what is good. Make sure that they hear that you find good in the things that they do. And my mom does this to my dad all the time. She makes him think that it's his idea, like genuinely do that for a defensive boss. Make him think that it was his idea or her idea, absolutely. Stacy Brockmeier 47:03 So an example of this one is Logan Roy from succession. So Logan is volatile. He takes suggestions as threats to his authority. Oh my gosh. So just tread really carefully. If this is your boss, you might just need a new job. I don't know, like they're not going to be the person who's going to let you make the job your own, for sure. Monica Pitts 47:27 Okay, so once you have assessed your boss type, right, whether they are the data driven boss, the big picture. Boss, the relationship focused. Boss, the just fix it. Boss, or the defensive boss, then you need to plan the right moment to have the conversation. Stacy, when should I not have this conversation Stacy Brockmeier 47:50 when you screwed something up this week? Don't do it right after you mess something up, you just look like you're like defending your mistakes. Not not a good look if timing is so and so important. So if it is, like, the most busy season or during a crisis, don't bring up big change. Like, no, it's not the right time. Like, have a like, follow up meeting if there's something happening like how you can fix this in the future, but in the moment is probably not it, so when your boss is already dealing with big issues or super stress. So my team so we have a team member who is going to be on maternity leave, basically first quarter of 2026 and our entire team has been like, pushing and pushing and pushing to make sure that we have like, all the little like extra things done before then. And the rest of our team is going to know that we're probably not going to make a lot of changes on the account service side in first quarter, so we're making big changes now and like, pushing forward. So just know when, like, stuff is already stressful. Who your first week on the job makeup, you don't know enough yet to complain, honestly, probably at that point it's that you're overwhelmed or you don't know how to keep track of information, and that is a change that you need to make personally in how you document things and how you're doing things I know when I first started. So granted, this has been like 15 years ago. My predecessor was so good at her job, but she could keep everything in her head down to like, which of the 10 websites had been billed, their first payment, their second payment, the third payment. Like I knew I was not that person. I knew I couldn't do that, but that was a me process change like that was just me documenting it. It wasn't a change that was going to affect the rest of the company. So knowing if it's your first week on the job, it's probably a you documenting things correctly. So. You can remember it. And then I think the other thing is like, just not springing things on people. So if it's a really big change that you're talking about making, like you need to make an appointment and you need to follow the proper channels so lots of times to not have that conversation, absolutely. Monica Pitts 50:22 And then so framing it, we talked about this earlier, and we said that we were going to make a sandwich. I call it a constructive criticism sandwich. I use it all the time in coaching and with my kids. So I tell them what's working well, I explain what's not working, and then I tell them how I propose that they make it better. So you've got a compliment, the constructive criticism, and then you fluff them up and you let them know it can be better, right? So there's the positives, all the carbs, those are the positives. Monica Pitts 51:00 I know that you have to hop off. So you can hop off. And I can either, like, finish this on my own. Stacy Brockmeier 51:08 Do you think we have How long do you think the rest of this will take? Monica Pitts 51:11 Um, well, I mean, I can talk about the stay adult and stay focused. I think what we could, what we should do, is talk about what happens after and then I think I could wrap it up, Stacy Brockmeier 51:26 okay, by myself. What do you think I had? I told Brittany they could get started with introductions. So let's get let's rock and roll with it. Monica Pitts 51:33 And okay, what I want you to do is, I want you to do File, New audio file. Stacy Brockmeier 51:40 Oh, okay, let me save this one first. Monica Pitts 51:43 Then, yeah, save this one because I'm going to splice them together, because I got to put the other piece in the middle of mine, right? Stacy Brockmeier 51:51 Why is it? Oh, it's because I didn't stop. Monica Pitts 51:54 I I paused. So File, Save As otherwise, I have to find it in the middle of these, and that's terrible. Okay? File, New, audio. File, Monica Pitts 52:22 okay. Got it. What happens after Monica Pitts 52:33 alrighty, okay, so you had the conversation with your boss. All right, so what happens? What happens? Right? Did they say yes? Did they say no? Let's talk about if they say no, if they say no, we've been saying this the whole time. We need to stay adult right. If you want to keep your job, let's stay adult, right? Stacy Brockmeier 52:56 Stacey, and sometimes a no isn't not right now, sometimes this is not the right timing. So that's make sure that you accept it gracefully. It's not that they don't care about you, it's not that they don't care about the situation. And if they don't, you need to get a new job, like if that's truly the thing. But I don't think I've ever once gone to Monica with a real concern. Now, I do vent to Monica just because we are in that, like, that is our relationship, but if you know, make sure that you are seeing it for really what it is. Monica Pitts 53:33 Yeah, and like Stacey said, you can clarify. Like, if they say no, then you can be like, Is that a no, never or not right now, I'm not trying to be pushy. That's That's okay, like, I just want to make sure that I should never bring this up to you again. Or if there's a door that's like, could be partially open someplace, because you're just really busy right now, right? And in a sales conversation, Stacey, what would you ask them if they said no in the sales conversation, Stacy Brockmeier 54:03 I would often ask them what they need from me in order to reconsider. So what is the what is the thing that is making the answer no, and how can I approach that, or fix that, or even just know for a future time that I'm asking for change. Monica Pitts 54:25 And then you are like, you know you got the No. And I feel like, then you just need to be aware of when you need to stop pushing too, because you're going to be like, hey, what do you need to reconsider? And they say it doesn't matter, like, the answer is just No, it doesn't fit our core values, whatever it is, then you just need to not push anymore and just move on to something else. I've had employees who, like, would be like, well, we should, this is the solution to this problem. And I'm like, it's actually not like, I we've done it before, and it didn't work then, and I don't want to do it again. I don't have the time to do it. It's just no. No, and they would be like, no, no, we should do it. And I'm like, You need to stop. Please stop. We're it's done. We had this conversation. The answer was, No, I'm sorry, but it's for a reason, right? Right now, this has not happened in our company, but it has happened where my husband works, because he works at a multi 1000 person company, right? If they say no, should you throw someone under the team on the team under the bus to get what you want? Stacy Brockmeier 55:29 You should be real, stinking careful. That's all I'm having to say. Is actually, I mean, this kind of did happen one time, and it did not go very well for the person who did that, and they no longer work here anymore. So if that tells you about being careful about throwing your team members under the bus to get what you want, you should probably not do that. Yeah, you might feel like citing another employee's actions or activities as like. Fact for your case, is good. It is not, do not open a can of worms. It's not your can to open, Monica Pitts 56:13 yeah, because the thing is, is that you don't know what your boss knows. Your boss may very well know exactly what Bob is doing. They may know Bob's exact situation, and they may not be at liberty to share it with you, and they also may not be able to make an exception for Bob because of the way that the company structure is other than ignoring Bob's behavior and allowing Bob to do what he's doing. And if you find out that Bob gets to do this thing because of this certain situation, and you put Bob's job in jeopardy, how you will feel? That doesn't feel very good, does it? No. I mean, I do think that you should leave that case closed and don't cite other employees like hardly ever. But if, if after the conversation, you get the answer that you think would impact Bob. Go to Bob and be like, Hey, be careful, man, because this is what I just heard from the boss. And I think that's an okay conversation to have, but I Stacy Brockmeier 57:15 yeah, it just, I think it's just so much better. I think it's just so much better to focus on what you can do to make it better, rather than, like, throwing somebody else under the bus, like you've done this discovery process, like you have probably uncovered some things that you can implement without approval to make it better. So, I mean, it could literally be as simple as, like Monica said in her like, previous position, she created an email form to get the information accurately, and the first time, like, your boss isn't going to fault you for making it more efficient. Like, focus on the things that you can do that don't impact other people. Monica Pitts 57:58 And if this really is a hill that you're willing to die on, and the answer really is no, not ever. Then you can't go find another job. I don't want to be like that, but it's like true. You know, if it is directly conflicting with your core values as a person, and it's going to make you unhappy to work there because they won't change this thing, then it's okay, like, and it does the other places out there for you. Stacy Brockmeier 58:22 It doesn't even make them, like, a bad company or bad like, I mean, you can have whatever feelings you have when leaving some place, but just because someone said no to you, like, it doesn't mean it just means that you're not the right fit, or they're not the right fit for you. Like, it's not a doesn't have to be this big, like drama filled, Monica Pitts 58:43 no crap, if you will. So then if they say yes, I feel like it's like any other sales situation, right? So they said, Yes. What do I do now? Stacy Brockmeier 58:54 Stacy, get clear. Oh, I love get clear. I say this all the time. Monica says this all the time, so just make sure that you know what the timeline is for implementing and what the expectations are for you and for other people to get the change like, rolling, yeah, definitely like, come back with the solution and the results to make sure that, like, To show that your boss that that solution actually worked or didn't work. I mean, it's okay to say, like, Hey, I know I proposed this. It didn't work the way that I thought it was. So just taking ownership of that and then making sure that you are giving credit where credit's due. So I'm not ever going to go take credit for something that Caitlin implemented, you know, so just make sure that you're building your team up that way. Monica Pitts 59:47 I actually quit a job because the boss continually said that everyone else's ideas and work were his in the client meetings. And I'm like, Dude, that was not your idea. That was Brandon's idea. He did that. I was like, so offended. Don't do that. Don't Don't be that dude. Okay, so we covered Yes, we covered No, and now we need to talk a little bit about what to do if it gets weird, right? Maybe you have a defensive boss. Maybe your boss goes emotional on. You remember what we talked about earlier? We need to stay adult. We need to stay in the adult ego state. The first person to go emotional loses. Okay, so you can excuse yourself. You can be like, I'm sorry. It seems like this is a bad time for you. I feel like maybe we should discontinue this conversation and pick it up again later, if you're okay with that. And then, and then you can get up and you can leave. Yeah, it's okay. Just make sure you stay adult even as you excuse yourself. And if you really do have a defensive boss, practice it, I'm serious. Practice it. Write it down. Say it in the record. It in a voice memo in your phone. Play it back to yourself. Say it to your friend or your husband, make sure you're coming across as adult and you have a graceful exit strategy for the conversation that you have planned out if you have a defensive boss, because that's okay, we just gotta plan for it. And yeah, don't because, you know, we don't want to burn our bridges if you want to keep your job, and we want to choose the hill that we're willing to die on not get emotional and accidentally burn ourselves down in the middle of the conversation. Yeah, let's not do that. Yes. Okay, so from there, the reality check, things are not going to change immediately at all. It could take weeks. It could take months, it could even take years to implement process changes, as you know, in a big company. So you had to think through the thoughts already at the beginning as to whether you were willing to be part of the effort or not. And so you decided you wanted to be part of the effort. So volunteer to take the effort to change and change what you can Yeah, Monica Pitts 1:02:20 now, If you went to your boss and they were gross and it was a terrible conversation, and they're acting like they want to punish you because you made a suggestion for an improvement, or if you talk to your co workers and multiple people have tried to change this and failed, and it makes Your life miserable, or if what you're facing is actually a symptom of deeper cultural problems, and you're like, fighting against a whole company, core values and not just a process, then it I mean, I think that's a red flag. I think it's just not the right place for you, and that's okay. And sometimes the answer is that it sucks and it just won't change. And we talked about that earlier, too, so you have to decide, like, can you live with this? Is because there's things that we do every day at MayeCreate that we've just decided, like, these are part of the process. We know we don't love it, but we're going to do it because it solves problems for future us, and that's what we want to have, right? And if you aren't willing to do it, then you just need to start looking for a better fit for you. That's going to work even better. Yeah, Monica Pitts 1:04:13 there you have it. How to tell your boss that part of your job sucks without actually getting fired. You got to know yourself. Have that self discovery and those conversations with yourself, your co workers and your friends know your boss, take your timing and for the love of all that's holy, arrive with some solutions, if you can Okay, arrive with solutions. And as we discussed, I know that not every boss will thank you for being entrepreneurial, but the good ones will actually appreciate that you care enough about your work to make it better. And if they don't, then that's probably the information that you needed anyway. And speaking of things that suck at work, our next episode is back to tech again with tips and tricks to stop website spam. You know those lovely form submissions? Is selling you SEO services or fake job applications, all those I want to buy your business messages clogging up your inbox at 3am love those. They just they suck. But here's the deal, your spam from your website isn't just annoying, although it absolutely is annoying, it's costing you time and it's making you miss real inquiries that are buried in the garbage, and it's tanking your website's performance a lot of the time too, and sometimes it even puts your website at risk. So in our next episode, we're going to bring back our expert Rebecca to explain exactly how to fix it and stop it from happening in the first place, because you've got actual work to do, and sorting through 47 spam submissions about crypto investments is not it. So subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss it. Thanks again for being with us today and listening and until next time, go forth and market with purpose. You Monica Pitts 1:07:33 of you use this sandwich method, stay adult, stay positive and keep focused. We want to start and maintain that adult ego state throughout the conversation, even when you're faced with objections. If you remain calm and focused and unemotional, then your boss is very highly likely to do the same. So again, we're going to start with what works. We don't lead with the complaints, right? And we frame this as an opportunity, not A grievance. Monica Pitts 1:08:21 And we frame this as an opportunity, not a grievance. So you're going to say things like, I've noticed you will not say you always, because we are not placing a personnel complaint. It's a process adjustment. So when you can use the first person plural, we as a team. We've noticed, because you're there as a representative of your team, it's not just about you, it's about making things better and more efficient and easier for the team. So for example, you might say during our project management meetings, I noticed we kept having the same conversation about x over the past few months. That got me thinking. So I spoke with the other project managers and discovered why, and I'd like to propose a few solutions that could make the process go smoother and help us reach our goals, right? So in that we did not say you, you started The conversation with the Monica Pitts 1:09:40 you would start by saying, Hey, there's this really great part of our process that works really, really well. And then I noticed this thing during the meeting, and so we're thinking that maybe we could do this to make it better. See, that's the sandwich method. Okay, so we can't do. Monica Pitts 1:10:12 And that my friend, is the sandwich method in action. Monica Pitts 1:10:35 Because we're ending with solutions. Okay, and realize that you don't just have to have one solution, and you might not even be the person who needs to make the decision about the solution, right? So you could arrive with multiple solutions. You can show that you've just thought this all the way through from front to back. Here might be challenges that you might face in any of the given solutions. You definitely want to illustrate how those solutions are going to work towards company goals, and if they propose another solution as you're in this conversation that doesn't meet the goals, make sure that you understand those goals, because it might be that the goals have changed, and so that's why their solution is better implemented than yours. As you're proposing solutions, make sure that you address who else it impacts, and you've thought this through in all your conversations, so you know this by now. So you're explaining the why behind your proposal and explain how you and your team, if they're involved, are willing to work to make the solution come to fruition, right? Because it's not you're not just placing it on your boss's desk, like, Hey, here's something else I want you to do. You are actually saying, Hey, we have this challenge. We want to propose a solution, and we're willing to see this, the solution, through and make it happen. You are way more likely to get what you want. Then, yeah, Monica Pitts 1:12:09 because not only are you sharing this problem solving mindset that you have, by presenting the problem and the solution, you're taking ownership over the outcome, and that's what businesses need. They need people who are willing to work in this business as if it's their own, and put that energy into it to get the right outcome and have the best outcomes for both the team and the company as a whole. Yeah.